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dreamingfifi
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|  | Elven Races
« Thread Started on Nov 13, 2006, 12:59am » | |
Elven Races
Discuss this essay here!
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Bestathanc ir nin tyngig an ndôr sîdh.
We shall be wedded when you bring me to a land of peace. -Nimrodel |
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estel
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| | Re: Elven Races
« Reply #1 on Apr 25, 2007, 1:17am » | |
Two things (so far) I want to ask, please:
Where is it set down by Tolkien that Elves are taller than Men?
Are there any Vanyarin or part-Vanyarin Elves in Middle-Earth after the Great Journey, apart from Galadriel and her descendants?
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Tolkien fan
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| | Re: Elven Races
« Reply #2 on Jul 16, 2007, 4:01am » | |
Couple of points:
Where does Tolkien say that Elves are taller than men?
Don't have my books in front of me, but from memory:
In the Peoples of Middle Earth, Tolkien, discussing the origin of the word Halfling for Hobbits, wrights that they were about 3'6", or about half the height of the Numenoreans of the 2nd Age and of the Elves, particularly the Noldor, who were about 7' on average.
In the Book of Lost Tales, in the part about Numenorean linear measures, Tolkien stated that one ranga was 38" and 'man high' was 2 range (6'4"), which was roughly the height of Numenoreans at the time of [some battle] (they were taller in earlier times. In the same essay Galadriel is said to be 'man high'.
Re Elven/eye hair color:
In the Appendix to the Lord of the rings, the Noldor and Sindar are described as tall, tark haired, grey eyed and fair skinned. In the Silmarilion, similar descriptions are given and the Noldor are said to be a little bigger than the Sindar. The Vanyar are said to be blond.
In the War of the Jewels (HOME XI) the Vanyar are said to be Blond, and the Noldor and Teleri (including Sindar) are said to be be generally dark haired. Some of the Noldor have blond hair through Finarfin's marriage to a Vanyar. Silver hair is said to appear among he Teleri/Sindar, but only rarely and generally among Elwe and his descendants. Cirdan is silver haired. Galadriel, being of all three kindreds is described as having silver golden hair, which is very rare. In the Hobbit, Legolas' father is described as blond, which would mean that some Sindar are blond also. In the Silmarilian, one of Feanor's brothers is described as red haired, so it appears that some Noldor are also red heads.
Also note: there's a fair amount of descriptive material re elves in HOME XI which could improve this essay.
That's all I can remember without reopening the books and looking at them.
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ederchil
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| | Re: Elven Races
« Reply #3 on Sept 2, 2007, 8:53am » | |
But in the Reader's Companion, it is said that Elves average between 6' (1.82m) and 6'4" (1.93). Galadriel and Celeborn were long, but no more than man-high. Aragorn was taller (9'6", 1.98m).
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amdireth
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| | Re: Elven Races
« Reply #4 on Jun 24, 2010, 1:22am » | |
I do remember reading that Elves were generally taller than Men, I think it was in the Silmarillion. And tall men were always being described as "tall as an Elf lord".
As for the Teleri having dark hair, I seem to recall the Silmarillion describing them as having silver blond hair. Certainly some individual Teleri are described like that, such as Celeborn in TFotR, The Mirror of Galadriel, "They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the hair of the Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright", and from the chapter Lothlórien, "[Haldir] gave a call like the low whistle of a bird, and out of a thicket of young trees an Elf stepped, clad in grey, but with his hood thrown back; his hair glinted like gold in the morning sun." And King Tharanduil is described in The Hobbit as having blond hair when Bilbo and the Dwarves stumble upon the Elves of Mirkwood at their feast. So it seems pretty likely that the essay is right on that point.
I know Elves are usually supposed to be beardless, but what about Círdan? In TRotK, the chapter entitled, "The Grey Havens, "As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long," does that mean there are some exceptions, some Elves who can grow beards?
And in the essay, where it says that the Avari are not found in Middle Earth, I could be wrong, but doesn’t the term “middle earth” come from all those old myths that Tolkien loved so much, as being the name for the place between (essentially) Heaven and Hell, what we simply call Earth? I’m fairly sure that Middle Earth was never meant to be taken as the name of a continent. Cuiviénen ought then to be a place in Middle Earth just like anywhere else (except Valinor, which was removed beyond the confines of the world).
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dreamingfifi
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| | Re: Elven Races
« Reply #5 on Jun 25, 2010, 1:47am » | |
Cirdan is old. Really really old. Perhaps an Elf can grow a beard after many many millennia of existence... and who's to say that the women couldn't grow beards either? Tolkien didn't tell us for certain, I believe.
"Middle-earth" was certainly named after the "Middle-earth" mentioned in Beowulf and old Scandinavian myths, but it actually refers to the space of land between Cuiviénen(a great big lake) and Belegaer (the ocean). The far east of the continent isn't really considered part of Middle-earth, as most of its cultures are located close to its western coast, and they tend to regard those who bumble in from the far east every once and a while as savage peoples too far removed from the Powers. Later on in Arda's history, Cuiviénen doesn't exist anymore. The land shifted, and in its place there is the Eastern Sea and a big desert. As far as Valinor is concerned, it wasn't removed from the world as much as it was hidden from it. If you're looking for a term for the world as a whole... "Arda" is better.
It should be noted that some of the elves of Aman considered all of the elves who abandoned the summons of the Valar to stay in Middle-earth as Avari... so the term is a little fluid, and depends on the character you're dealing with. Basically, whoever lived to the east of them were the savage Refusers, far from the influence of the powers.
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Bestathanc ir nin tyngig an ndôr sîdh.
We shall be wedded when you bring me to a land of peace. -Nimrodel |
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thelauderdale
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| | Re: Elven Races
« Reply #6 on Aug 3, 2010, 11:09pm » | |
Jun 25, 2010, 1:47am, dreamingfifi wrote:| Cirdan is old. Really really old. Perhaps an Elf can grow a beard after many many millennia of existence... and who's to say that the women couldn't grow beards either? Tolkien didn't tell us for certain, I believe. |
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Or Cirdan is just an unusual Elf...setting the precedent for other unusual Elves. Not that I see fan-authors making a rush to give their Elf OCs beards, whether male or female. 
Actually, I had a question about Elf women -
# Elven women aren't very feminine to our eyes. Sorry teenage boys, no lovely curves or big breasts. Tolkien describes them as being as tall and broad-shouldered as the men. Their chests were probably fairly flat while they were not having children as well.
I was talking to someone about Elf sexual dimorphism (or lack thereof) when I realized I was having a hard time finding the book matter to support my thoughts. I know that Elf men and women were supposed to be closer in speed and strength than mortal men and women, and Galadriel is described as being as tall as her husband and with a voice "deeper than woman's wont." But where does the information come from that most Elf women are not curvy or chesty, or that they are normally tall and broad-shouldered like Elf men?
Kick me freely if it's somewhere obvious.
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Nar jut pau. Poshak shafrenaum jut-ishi. |
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dreamingfifi
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| | Re: Elven Races
« Reply #7 on Aug 4, 2010, 6:52pm » | |
Page 213 of Morgoth's Ring, in the Laws and Customs of the Eldar. It's the paragraphs describing the differences between Elven men and women.
You're right, it doesn't explicitly say in what ways Elven women are less feminine looking than human women, but the three big things are curves, height, and shoulders. It also indicates that this changes after Elven women have children... i.e. they gain curves after they have children.
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Bestathanc ir nin tyngig an ndôr sîdh.
We shall be wedded when you bring me to a land of peace. -Nimrodel |
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